What happens when countries that have long been told how to develop start challenging the rules of international development? Dan Banik speaks with Dima Al-Khatib, Director of the United Nations Office for South-South Cooperation (UNOSSC), about the growing assertiveness of the Global South, shifting geopolitical power, South-South and triangular cooperation, and the prospects for a fairer and more inclusive system of global governance.
Who gets to decide how the world develops, and why have the same countries dominated that conversation for so long? Across Africa, Asia, and Latin America, countries are increasingly challenging the traditional hierarchies of international development and asserting their right to shape their own futures. But can the growing influence of the Global South fundamentally change the rules of global cooperation?
In this episode, Dan Banik speaks with Dima Al-Khatib, Director of the United Nations Office for South-South Cooperation (UNOSSC), about the growing influence of the Global South and the renewed momentum behind cooperation among developing countries. They explore why countries across Africa, Asia, and Latin America are increasingly looking to one another for solutions to shared challenges, from agricultural productivity and public health to digital infrastructure and climate change.
The conversation examines the expanding roles of emerging powers, the importance of solidarity and reciprocity, and the potential of triangular cooperation to bring together expertise, financing, and institutional support. But it also raises difficult questions about inequalities of power within the Global South, the financing of development, and whether ambitious political declarations can translate into meaningful results.
Looking ahead, Dan and Dima discuss the need to reform international institutions, strengthen the voices of developing countries, and engage civil society, academia, and regional organizations more actively in development cooperation. They also explore the UN's efforts to build new partnerships through a new global alliance for South-South and triangular cooperation.
[Dan Banik]
Dima, we've known each other for a while, but this is the first time you're on the show. So welcome.
[Dima Al-Khatib]
Thank you very much and thank you for welcoming me on the show. I'm excited. I've been a keen follower of your account and have really enjoyed many of your podcasts and guests. And part of our job, actually, is to listen as well.
[Dan Banik]
Well, I'm glad that the UN is listening, and a lot of people do follow my podcast.
But Dima, we're going to talk today about something I've discussed quite a lot over the last season, and that has to do with the rise of the Global South. I admit I was wrong a few years ago when I thought the BRICS was dead and all this talk about South-South cooperation was ebbing and flowing. Then suddenly the pandemic happened, we had wars, and there were accusations that the Global North, including my own country, was looking inward.
And so, I suddenly see this rise in the assertiveness of the Global South and much more talk about South-South cooperation. Is that also your take? Do you see this growing discussion about South-South cooperation that wasn't there five, six, or seven years ago?
[Dima Al-Khatib]
One hundred percent. We've been monitoring the growth of the voice of the Global South, or the countries of the South. As an office, we produce annual analytical reports for the Secretary-General and the UNDP Administrator, because we're a hosted entity within UNDP. The purpose of these reports, which are shared and discussed with member states, is to monitor the status, growth, and progression of South-South cooperation—and let me add triangular cooperation, because it complements South-South cooperation and operates on the same principles.
It's really amazing to see this happening. And I like the way you frame it, because when major development challenges arise, such as pandemics, they bring countries much closer together. I'd put it in terms of solidarity, but also something beyond solidarity.
South-South cooperation has been taking many shapes and forms. Some of it is financial support, but there's also much more. What's interesting, and growing, is the exchange of knowledge, peer-to-peer learning, and the exchange of solutions. This has definitely been on the rise.
It's also becoming a more pressing issue now that reforms are happening within the multilateral system and we're talking more realistically about development challenges that require more than one country to work together. Be it climate, health pandemics, water management, financial issues, recovery from natural disasters, or conflicts, there's a lot at stake that cannot be resolved unless countries cooperate, through South-South and triangular cooperation and beyond.
Having said that, I don't want to undermine the traditional form of cooperation, North-South cooperation, because it's very important. Yes, it's on the decline, but it's still highly valued. And countries of the Global South are very keen to preserve it.
[Dan Banik]
And you're right. It's not just the financial aspect. For me, what's new, when I speak to leaders and senior officials in the Global South, is that they also talk about moral solidarity. It's not just financial transfers or the aid world. And we can talk about the major aid cuts taking place, which have also offered South-South cooperation a new avenue to fill that gap.
But beyond finance, there's this moral solidarity: we're all in the same boat. When it comes to hunger, agricultural productivity, irrigation, and some of the other challenges countries in the Global South are facing, a solution seems more credible if it comes from another country that has gone through the same experience, rather than some of the preaching, perhaps, from the Global North. I think that's an important aspect.
But going back to the financial side, Dima, it's really worrying. I've been quoted in *Science* magazine a couple of times in the last month. The UK has cut drastically. USAID has been dismantled. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, Norway is one country still standing, with 1% of our GNI. But other Western countries are cutting aid. The aid world is changing. It's a new world altogether.
What do you see happening on the South-South and triangular cooperation front? Do you think there'll be more money for development, or will it be more about knowledge transfer and innovation? Where do you see things heading over the next six months to a year?
[Dima Al-Khatib]
Well, I see it on many fronts, but I want to go back briefly to your previous question, because it's also an existential issue for some countries, specifically small island developing states. If these countries don't address the challenge of climate change among themselves, within the same ecosystem, through exchanges of experience and greater solidarity, it's an existential issue.
Now, going back to your second point about finance, you're absolutely right. The availability of funding is decreasing. We know that ODA has been increasing by, I think, 23.1, according to the latest OECD reports. But at the same time, we see opportunities.
South-South and triangular cooperation are happening on many fronts. They might not be labelled as such, but they're happening. They might not even be measured yet, although there are efforts within the UN system, led by UNCTAD, to measure South-South and triangular cooperation as part of the broader SDG agenda. Under SDG 17, there's an element of measuring South-South and triangular cooperation.
So, in terms of numbers, we still don't have a complete picture of the scope of South-South cooperation and its financial contributions. That's partly because South-South cooperation can't always be measured in money, especially when we're talking about capacity development and exchanges. And in many countries, it's not labelled as such—not only in countries of the South, but also in Northern countries. A triangular cooperation initiative might not be identified that way, so it doesn't show up in the figures.
But as we move forward, we definitely see a growing tendency to lean towards South-South and triangular cooperation. The question is how to finance it. Even if you want to pursue that route, based on solidarity, mutual benefit, and respect for sovereignty, you still need financial resources. That's something we need to be mindful of.
Sometimes financing is available, but there are funding resources that aren't being tapped. Take, for example, the financing for development agenda and the Compromiso de Sevilla. There's a call for a bigger role for the multilateral development banks, the international financial institutions, and other sources of financing.
And through our dialogues with different entities, we hear something important about the role of the multilateral system. Multilateral development banks or financing institutions say, "We have funding, but we don't receive bankable projects." On the other side, countries say, "I'm interested in accessing that financing, but I don't have the capacity." This is where the multilateral system has a huge role to play in facilitating and enabling countries to develop bankable projects. That's just one example. There are pools of funding that aren't being fully tapped.
There are also other opportunities we collectively need to think about. Previously, with the support of Norway, we did a very interesting exercise with Norec: a small study on how the exchange of personnel, from a triangular cooperation perspective, can help build capacities and institutions and enable cooperation. It can also help Northern countries better understand the problems, key issues, and bottlenecks that hamper governance of cooperation at the country level.
This isn't a new modality. It's an old one, but it hasn't been sufficiently used or capitalized on. These exchanges don't necessarily require a lot of money, and they can happen through collaboration among countries, whether South-South or North-South.
Another opportunity is the diaspora. Countries of the South often have huge diasporas. These people bring a great deal of knowledge and expertise. How can we, as a system, facilitate not only their investment in their countries of origin and the rebuilding of social cohesion, but also capacity building and institutional development? That's extremely important.
I've listened to some of your previous podcasts, and many of your eminent guests have mentioned the importance of regional approaches, regional exchanges, and regional networks in reinforcing cooperation and addressing problems. We have good examples, whether it's the African free trade agreements or ASEAN. These are important regional networks that need to be better utilized from our perspective within the UN as well. I'm not speaking on behalf of the entire UN, but I think these are very important entry points.
[Dan Banik]
Dima, there's a lot of talk about South-South cooperation, but not everybody knows about triangular cooperation. I remember the first time I heard that term was in China. China was involved, I think, in a trust fund with the FAO, and it was about doing something with perhaps the UK in a third country. That's when I first became interested in the term.
One very concrete recent example was when Prime Minister Modi of India visited Oslo a few months ago. The Norwegian government and India signed an agreement on triangular cooperation in certain areas where India has expertise, but Norway may provide the financing. One could say, for example, that India's expertise in digital infrastructure could provide a solution that could be introduced elsewhere in the world.
Do you have any concrete examples of where this kind of triangular cooperation is already making an impact?
[Dima Al-Khatib]
I do, and I'm glad to hear about this collaboration between India and Norway. India is actually one of our close partners, and I'll come back to that.
Triangular cooperation, as I said at the beginning, is closely connected to South-South cooperation because it operates on the same principles: solidarity, mutual respect, mutual benefit, and equality. More specifically, it's when you have two or more countries benefiting from or exchanging experiences and collaborating on a particular issue, with the support of a third party. That third party could be a UN entity, a country, a multilateral development bank, academia—you name it.
Discussions around triangular cooperation happen every year, by the way. Portugal hosts an annual international conference on triangular cooperation, in collaboration with the OECD, and we've been participating in those discussions. What I like about that platform is that it brings together countries and partners from across the globe. They discuss progress, the bottlenecks, how to overcome them, the financial aspects, and some of the key triangular cooperation projects. This year will be the conference's 10th anniversary, so you may want to keep it on your radar.
Now, on specific examples, let me take initiatives that we're managing ourselves. We have a triangular cooperation collaboration with Korea. Korea is working with us on a project to support four countries around the Mekong River, focusing on the water, environment, and food nexus.
What does that mean? Institutions in Korea, particularly a scientific and technical institution called STEPI, are working through the Mekong River Commission with four countries — Thailand, Vietnam, Lao PDR, and Cambodia — to identify specific pilot projects. The goal is to show how technology can be introduced to address challenges involving water, the environment, and food.
It might be perceived as a one-way process, where one country provides a technical solution. But it's actually about working jointly with local communities and institutions. At the same time, the project ensures that the four countries learn from each other and that the Mekong River Commission is fully engaged, so there's sustainability and the possibility of scaling up later.
We're now discussing a new phase of this initiative to take it further and strengthen its sustainability and links to the work of the UN system on the ground, so it doesn't remain an isolated initiative.
In every initiative involving triangular or South-South cooperation, we always have to think about the institutional elements, sustainability, benefits, and applicability.
[Dan Banik]
I've been studying infrastructure projects and China's logistical capacity on the African continent. Just think about the ability to build infrastructure that the West, the Global North, hasn't prioritized since the 1960s. The Belt and Road Initiative, which is a new avatar of what China was already doing, has been extremely important for roads, bridges, power plants, and so on.
The other big emerging power in the Global South, India, has been prioritizing health and education. I have several research projects looking at how India has become the pharmacy of the world. Without Indian generic drugs, many countries in the Global South wouldn't be able to afford medicines. And there's also medical tourism. We see all kinds of things happening.
Then there's technical expertise. Just think about how India has had this high-tech program since the 1950s, through which many African students were trained in engineering. This was even before India became a major financial power. So, I think that aspect of technical expertise is important, alongside what I said earlier about moral solidarity—the feeling that we're all in the same boat.
All of this, I think, has contributed to the idea of the Global South becoming more accessible (or acceptable, I would say) in the last few years. I see a rise in that discussion.
So, we talk about South-South cooperation, but also about the term "Global South." Now, the criticism I hear, and I'd like your perspective, is that the Global South includes almost everything. Is China part of the Global South? We have to use different indicators. It's not a geographical concept; it's a geohistorical concept. You can argue for and against it.
But the major criticism I hear, Dima, particularly in African capitals, is that South-South cooperation is great, but some of the bigger powers seem to benefit more than the smaller ones. We're talking about the BRICS countries, and it's almost as if there's competition among them to be the leader of the Global South.
I know you're representing the UN here, so you have to be diplomatic. But what's your take on some of the criticisms one hears about South-South cooperation?
[Dima Al-Khatib]
Listen, whatever phenomenon emerges, there will always be criticism. From our perspective, we listen to it and try to see how we can analyze it further.
I think the rise of the countries of the South isn't necessarily driven by a need to create a balance. Of course, every country has its own agenda, and I won't go into that because it's not my job. But I have to say that we've worked with countries that have been leading on South-South cooperation.
We have a longstanding collaboration with China, a historical one for this office, involving technical cooperation and support for countries of the South across many sectors and themes. We also have a collaboration with India. There's an India-UN trust fund for which we provide secretariat support, and it's more focused on supporting least developed countries and small island developing states. There are opportunities to leverage the expertise of these countries, and that expertise can and should be used.
We also manage a very interesting trust fund that is itself a showcase of solidarity among countries of the South. It's called IBSA, which stands for India, Brazil, and South Africa. Three countries from three different continents came together to establish a fund to support other countries. Implementation takes place through the multilateral system, but the fund helps address some critical and complex issues at the country level. It's having an impact and bringing scalable solutions.
So, criticism will always be there. One criticism I hear is: South-South cooperation is good, but where's the financial support?
With emerging platforms like BRICS, and I don't want to call BRICS an institution, because it's more of a platform, they've established a mechanism, the New Development Bank. It's trying to address development issues differently and respond to what countries are asking for, whether that's using local currencies or addressing infrastructure needs. I believe there has already been significant investment by the New Development Bank, almost 43 billion, which is phenomenal. So, I think this will develop further.
Another defining feature of the Global South is that it's a heterogeneous group. You can't simply say they're all developing countries. No. What brings them together goes beyond GDP. It's history, language, culture, and many shared experiences. Because the group is heterogeneous and there are so many geopolitical issues, we'll see both advantages and disadvantages emerge.
But from the perspective of our office, the UN Office for South-South Cooperation, we have to do more than monitor what's happening. In our narrative, we also need to encourage that collaboration. And it shouldn't be perceived as separate from the wider development cooperation ecosystem. It should be part and parcel of it.
So, if I'm a UN lead at the country level and I'm developing a partnership strategy, while I'll be targeting traditional donors, I also need to integrate the potential of South-South and triangular cooperation. And this requires a lot of work on institutionalization.
What you see differs across regions. In Latin America, for example, South-South and triangular cooperation are much more institutionalized. In fact, the Buenos Aires Plan of Action was born in Argentina. So that region is the cradle of South-South cooperation. In Africa, institutionalization is still progressing. One thing we promote is learning between these two regions, and from what we see, there's an appetite for that.
In Asia, of course, you have big emerging partners like China and India, but we also need to look at Central Asia. Those countries have aspirations to lead in many areas. For example, there's an AI Centre of Excellence being established in China. There's also a regional hub on the SDGs being established in Kazakhstan, which has historically had centres addressing governance. So, there are many initiatives through which countries are trying to play a leading role.
I want to end with one thing. Every year, we celebrate the UN Day for South-South Cooperation on 12 September. This year we're doing it on the 11th. From our previous commemorations, and from listening to member states, I've realized that the narrative has changed.
Even the poorest countries, when they discuss South-South cooperation, no longer talk only about what they need. They also talk about what they can offer, even when they're very poor in many respects and are dealing with multiple crises, including debt and violence.
[Dan Banik]
That's actually a very important point, and I forgot to mention it when I was talking about finance and moral solidarity. It also has to do with not always being a recipient. If you receive gifts all the time and have nothing to give others, it creates this feeling that you're not important.
So, reciprocity, I think, is extremely important. One of the many added values of South-South cooperation, as I understand it, is that I may not have something fantastic to give you, but at least I have something. It may not be of the best quality, but you're willing, as a partner, to take some of my exports. Rather than dismissing these as low quality or unimportant, I think that feeling that we scratch each other's backs has been fundamental.
But Dima, we're getting towards the end of our conversation, and I'm thinking about some of the new implications for global governance. Think about Bandung in the 1950s, the Non-Aligned Movement in the 1960s and 1970s, and the Buenos Aires declaration that helped launch this whole concept of South-South cooperation.
More recently, as I mentioned, the pandemic and the growing economic might of some Global South actors have contributed to a feeling, at least in the Global North, that we have to change. We have to reform the multilateral system, because that's what many countries in the Global South want. They want a bigger share. They want a seat at the table, and they want to influence the decisions made there.
That's where global growth is taking place—in Asia. That's where the middle class is growing. That's where the Global North is selling its products. And the Global South, if I can generalize, feels that the multilateral system is fundamentally unfair and doesn't give it a sufficient voice.
But here, Dima, I see one positive development: the G20, especially its presidencies over the last four years—Indonesia, India, Brazil, and South Africa. They've given the Global South an increased voice. Some of the declarations coming out of those meetings are actually resonating. They're talking about what the Global South wants.
Going forward, I know you're interested in thinking about new ways in which South-South cooperation can take place. I understand there's an initiative you're going to launch, a global alliance for South-South and triangular cooperation. Maybe you can say something about that.
I also noticed that your office is interested in bringing civil society more actively on board. Could you reflect on global governance from the Global South's perspective and how we might create stronger institutions? One criticism of BRICS, at least from my perspective, has always been that it doesn't have a permanent secretariat. So, institutionalization is extremely important, but we also need to think about new approaches.
Civil society is one. A coalition is another, I suppose. And perhaps there need to be fundamental reforms in the UN system, the World Bank, and the IMF. There's a lot that the Global South is demanding, as I see it.
[Dima Al-Khatib]
That's very true, and a lot is happening at the same time. But you're absolutely right about institutionalization. I believe we need to think about institutionalization not only globally, but also at the country and regional levels. Sometimes you might have the best setup globally, but if it doesn't trickle down, there's no effect.
The UN is a place where every country has an equal voice. We believe in that, and we'd like to continue believing in it. But there's a distinction: you might have a seat at the table without necessarily having the capacity to articulate your needs on an equal footing. So there's also a capacity issue. Institutionalization and capacity building go hand in hand, and we need both.
Civil society is extremely important too. We all know that at the local level, even where you may not have mayors or strong local institutional infrastructure, civil society is the voice of the people.
Think tanks and academia are also key elements of what we're trying to strengthen. We want to work closely with think tanks from the South to bring their voices into analysis, evidence-based approaches, and the shaping of national policies. Rather than having a donor or partner come in and tell a country what it should do, it's important to have a much higher level of ownership.
So, what are we aiming to do with this global alliance? We're not an operational entity. We're an office that advocates, enables, and facilitates South-South and triangular cooperation. Normally, our work spans several pillars. A large part involves intergovernmental work. We're guided by the High-level Committee on South-South Cooperation, which is the only high-level committee of the General Assembly. Its leadership rotates geographically, and both North and South are represented. It's not only about countries of the South.
We also manage trust funds entrusted to us, which showcase how solidarity can support development cooperation. We have multiple collaborations on that front, and we also do a lot of work on knowledge generation, knowledge creation, and solutions.
With our new framework, we saw that a global alliance for South-South cooperation could take this to the next level. It would provide a platform where all these elements can connect.
I gave the example earlier of countries saying, "We'd like to access certain concessional loans, but we don't have the capacity to prepare bankable projects." Multilateral development banks can also explain what they offer. It's about connecting the dots and making matches—not only in financing, but also in sharing best practices. What discussions are happening? What solutions already exist?
Partners could use this global alliance to start discussions and prepare for events such as COP31. We all know countries of the South are still struggling with financing parts of the climate agenda. All of this requires a great deal of work, but it doesn't necessarily have to happen in a highly formal intergovernmental setting.
What we're trying to do with this platform is connect different partners, whether the starting point is an offer or a demand, and broaden partnerships by bringing other actors on board. We're trying to facilitate that. I believe it will lead to much more collaboration, not only with the multilateral system, but also directly among different kinds of organizations and institutions.
For example, last year we initiated a collaboration with the European Space Agency, which provides spatial data that can help address key development challenges. We launched an expression of interest to find out who would like to benefit from it. It was a free, demand-driven opportunity.
It took us almost six to eight months to mobilize the whole process and hear back from countries. With a platform like this, it could take minutes or seconds. You could put forward your demand, and potential matches could emerge.
We're excited about that. Please stay tuned and follow us as we develop this alliance.
[Dan Banik]
I will. I'm looking forward to learning more about what you're doing, but also to understanding what works. We need more of that evidence. Not just talk and rhetoric, but actual impact. So, I'm looking forward to following your work and seeing the launch of this alliance. Thank you very much for this lovely chat. It was good to see you.
[Dima Al-Khatib]
Good to see you too. I hope it was useful, and we look forward to having you involved in the alliance. We can talk separately about how we might bring these podcasts to a wider audience.